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Golden Tribe replied to Mandi Gorenstein's discussion A new TV series with the intention to dispel the myths and stereotypes around people with dreadlocks
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official johnny clean dreadlocks and dread wax debate may 7th 8pm est

this discussion will remain closed untill 15 minutes before debate time.
at that time the debate will be held here openly for all the world to see and participate.
johny clean 1st agreed to the debate then showed signs of trying to back out.
we dont know if he will show or not but the truth will be discussed with or without him. we want him to know we are not going to attack him we only wish to discuss the truth using scientific and logical means as well as real life experiences.
once the debate ls opened it will remain open forever and further discussions is welcome.
the current questions are listed below, but all who attendd may ask their own (nicely).



question 1: given the nature of wax, being a viscous substance with a melting point above 140 f and the properties of being hydrophobic how does wax not build up within dreads?
question 2: why is it recommended to only use non residue shampoo because residues are hard to remove, but also recommended to use a waterproof residue thats almost impossible to remove?
question 3: since dreads happen without effort how do you justify recommending a process with complicated instructions that takes hours and hours a week?
question 4: why do you demonize natural dreads when natural dreads are generally considered the most respected?
question 5: why do you recommend using tools and techniques like felting and crocheting that cause massive damage to dreads?
question 6: why do you deny harming anyone with your products despite the fact that thousands complain that they had to cut off dreads after using your products?
question 7: why do you continually recommend using less and less wax but still recommend using any?
question 8: in your lock docta vid you market a felting needle as a way to "fix" dreads that are simply doing what dreads do as they mature, but on the lock docta website it clearly says using the tool can cause the dread to break tight iff, why do you recommend fixing a dread thats not broken with a tool that can cause it to be broken?

question 9: why have your own dreads never lasted past 3-4 years?
question 10 why is it almost no waxy dreads last past 3-4 years?
question 11: why do you think most previous wax users now warn everyone not to use wax?
question 12:how much wax he originally used in all his own sets, and how or if it might have differed from his updated instruction
question 13: the many customers who meet the criteria of "over waxing" how long would it take to remove wax that has accumulated
question 14: what is the correlation of stiffened locks and the use of wax, why does it seem to produce locks that have a stick like stiffened tightness to them, different from real maturity found in other locks. or is this the result of a fore mentioned over waxing.
question 15: how is overwaxing defined?
question 16: if wax is not needed and potentially harmful wouldn't any waxing be overwaxing?
question 17: you have always blamed those who were hatmed by wax for over waxing but over the years have constantly recomended the use of less and less wax, at the same time you deny that anyones ever complained, so why have you lowered the recomended amounts? why do you say nobody has ever complained but at the same time say everyone whos complained over used wax?
question 18: why do you recomend wax even for natural/neglect dreads?
question 19: in the dread community natural dreads are the most respected and admired, so why do you try to make them seem the least desirable?
question 20: why do you think that all dreadlocks should look the same and shouldnt be induvidual?
question 21: this is a multipart question. its been pointed out that in all of your vids you contradict yourseld constantly, several contradictions we request clarification on are: you say dread wax does not build up in dreads or trap dirt then say wax will trap dirt if stuck on a wall but doesnt trap dirt in wax in the core of dreasds. so if wax doesnt build up why is it in the core and if wax can get in why cant dirt? also, you claim wax doesnt make dreads feel sticky, but then go on to say you dont even like touching your dreads after waxing so you recomend dread butta to cver up the waxy feel. why does dread butta exist idf wax doesnt make dreads stink and feel sticky?
question 21: what are the ingrediants in wax butta, and why should anyone buy it just to cover up wax they never should have used to begin with?



anyone have any more questions you'd like to ask johny?

until debate time questions can be discussed here http://www.dreadlockssite.com/forum/topics/a-debate-challenge-to-johny

Tags: bees, boy, clean, debate, dhhq, dread, dreadheadhq, dreadlock, dreadlocks, johnny, More…knotty, knottyboy, removal, wax, waxing

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Of course we will have to both agree on what type of evidence is required as "proof". In most cases we'll devise an experiment that we agree would provide sufficient evidence and we'll carry it out. Of course the experiment needs to be well documented so that it can be reproduced by anyone who wishes to do so.
This is essential so that if the other party doubts the results they can repeat the experiment and confirm the results.


ok knottysleeves a member here who yiuve talked to on twitter
1srt waxy set (used less then recomended) dreaded very very slowly and didnt really dread much at all till stopping wax, combed out and started over without wax her progress at 6 months was further along then at 3 years using wax

thats repeatable by anyone we have about 600 members who dreaded with and without wax all swear wax free is best
I never used wax once, and my dreads are neat and tidy, also 100% Aloe Vera (free if you have the plant) works the same as wax but washes right out without remedies and heat. Why not sell that instead?
I would take 2 samples of backcombed human hair. I would weigh and wash them in dread soap to be sure they are free of residues. I would weigh and then apply a specific amount of DreadHead Dread Wax to one of the dreads. I would use an initial serving of dread wax (either 1 or 2 grams depending on the size of the dread) since this is the largest amount of wax that one every puts in a dread. The second dread would receive an equal amount of Elmers glue. I would then leave the dreads exposed to open air for 7 days (or longer depeding on what is agreed)to give the dread wax and glue time to "dry" if it could, or harden if it was going to. Then I'd measure the dreads width in several areas and record it. Next I'd palm roll the dread for 1 minute. Last I would measure the dreads width again as before and record the measurements.

what the hell?
why would you put glue in dreads? let alone wax
this experiments flawed uless its done wax versus nuthing..glue? seriosly?
I think the point was so that he could prove he's not just gluing dreads together with wax, if wax did just glue it together then they would turn out the same.

☮soaringeagleॐ said:
I would take 2 samples of backcombed human hair. I would weigh and wash them in dread soap to be sure they are free of residues. I would weigh and then apply a specific amount of DreadHead Dread Wax to one of the dreads. I would use an initial serving of dread wax (either 1 or 2 grams depending on the size of the dread) since this is the largest amount of wax that one every puts in a dread. The second dread would receive an equal amount of Elmers glue. I would then leave the dreads exposed to open air for 7 days (or longer depeding on what is agreed)to give the dread wax and glue time to "dry" if it could, or harden if it was going to. Then I'd measure the dreads width in several areas and record it. Next I'd palm roll the dread for 1 minute. Last I would measure the dreads width again as before and record the measurements.

what the hell?
why would you put glue in dreads? let alone wax
this experiments flawed uless its done wax versus nuthing..glue? seriosly?
Once accepted, we would have "officially" come to an understanding on that topic. It would be "known" and "proven" that DreadHead Dread Wax does not glue hair together preventing movement and does not prevent dreading. It would then be a betrayal of our agreement and your commitment to the truth to say that it did. You would be responsible only for your own comments but, being committed to the truth, if you were to see someone else mis-representing the facts you could give them a link so that they could deepen their knowledge as well. Of course I would be bound in the same way - if, after determining that dread wax did stick hair together like glue and prevent dreading, I were to deny this on my site I would be betraying our argument and you would have every right to call me on it.

ok in our wax removal thread theres a dread that was cut open
after being cut open to expose the gross wax inside

it wass rolled once

guess what happened? the wax glueds it back togetbher into s perfect looking dread
how can a dread cit into peices be glued back together with wax that hadnt been put in in over 4 years if a the wax never built up and b the wax didnt glue hair together?

hmmmm
Yes, I agree more with this wording of the question.


Knottysleeves said:
If you want clarification on a question, you should probably ask us to reword instead of rewriting it yourself?

For example, I suggest question #1 should be reworded as "Since the main ingredients in DreadheadHQ wax are beeswax and microcrystalline (petroleum-refined) wax, and the melting point of beeswax starts at about 140F, how can it be claimed that your wax washes out in hot water, and does not solidify or re-harden inside the dreads after melting it in with a hot hairdryer as recommended?"
In this way we would all work together to spread the knowledge we've gained through experimentation. With our combined reach we could see to it that almost everyone interested in dreadlocks would have access to this information. To ensure this we will need to gain the cooperation of as many dreadlocks sites as possible and certainly every known Anti-Wax site. By having each of these sites agree to the terms of our "Dreadlocks Treaty" and agree to host a copy or a link to the entire discussion we know that it will be seen by just about every new comer to the scene.

will you include a link on your site as well? or only on anti wax sites
I have to agree that this is a very good re-wording.

Knottysleeves said:
If you want clarification on a question, you should probably ask us to reword instead of rewriting it yourself?

For example, I suggest question #1 should be reworded as "Since the main ingredients in DreadheadHQ wax are beeswax and microcrystalline (petroleum-refined) wax, and the melting point of beeswax starts at about 140F, how can it be claimed that your wax washes out in hot water, and does not solidify or re-harden inside the dreads after melting it in with a hot hairdryer as recommended?"
I'm gonna go ahead and paste the answer for Q1 here for those of you who missed the link

KJC said
Question 1






Given the nature of wax, being a viscous substance with a melting point above 140 f and the properties of being hydrophobic how does wax not build up within dreads?





There are a few problems with the initial question.

1) there are many types of wax, each with their own melting points.

2) I believe that all waxes are hydrophobic but I'm not sure of this.

3) We have no indication here of how the wax is to be used so that must be defined as well.

I'm going to modify the question and then answer it. Please let me know if there are any objections to the changes I've made. Here's the modified version:




Given the nature of DreadHead Dread wax which is hydrophobic (meaning it repels water), with a melting point that's assumed to be over 140F how can it not build up within dreads when it's used as recommended by DreadHeadHQ.com?





Awesome! I can answer that!



First I'd like to define "as recommended by DreadHeadHQ.com" so we are all on the same page. Below is a 5 point summary of the most current information on using DreadHead Dread Wax. I don't know for certain that this list is all inclusive but it should be sufficient for our purposes. Following these recommendations would be using wax "as recommmended".


1) Determine if your dreads are small or large. If they are closer to .5cm in width they are small. If they are closer to 2cm in width they are large.
2)Large dreads always get .4 grams of wax unless it is the very first time you are waxing them. The first time they get 2 grams.
Small dreads always get .2 grams of wax unless it is the very first time you are waxing them. The first time they get 1 gram.
These amounts are "per three inches of dread" - so .4 grams for every three inches. If your dread was 6 inches you would apply .8 grams total. Photos that show how to measure these amounts using a coin as a guide are on the site.
3) When maintenance waxing only add wax to dreads that do not have detectable wax in them. If a dread already has some wax, skip it.
4)Wax should be used when you have knots that are puffy and need to be compressed. Right after you have finished backcombing is a good example, another would be right after you have clockwise rubbed many dreads. New knots should always be formed before adding wax, the best time to make knots is when you have little or no wax in the hair. Because wax helps knots compress and tighten there is no need to ever put wax on straight hair - in fact it's counter productive.

5) Don't forget to do a hot rinse/cleanse once a month while wax is being used. Since its common to use wax for 3-4 months you'll probably do a total of 3 or 4 of these. The first one is by far the most important because after the first month you have very little wax in the dreads.
Now that we know what wax will be used and how it will be used we can look at how the melting point effects removal and why DreadHead dread wax can be removed.
(I have to pause here so I can go post my link - I'll continue shortly)

"***

I pulled up the forum and noticed you guys already had changes you wanted to make to the reworded question. That's not a problem at all. Make sure you all agree and when you have one you really like you can post it to the Dreadlocks Treaty Facebook. If I think it's clear and works I'll go ahead and answer it as you proposed it. If not I'll make the changes I think are necessary and post it for your approval. I won't start answering it until I have your approval.

Hasta mañana,

KJC"
also if you didn't read the small text, I believe the next part is being typed up, so To Be Continued,,, lol =)
all waqx to be defined as wax must have a minumum melting point of 140 f
anything with a lower melting point is defined as an oil
so aanything defined as wax including the waxes in dread wax must have a melting point above 140
all waxes also are hydrophobic this is also a defining factor of wax

so your basicly admitting for all your experimebnts you dont even understand the very basics of what wax is? ever heard of wikipedia/
Maybe we need to test the melting point.

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